Author: jackmk

The Bible: Debate vs Discussion

I debate a lot of Christians, not because I am, by nature, argumentative, although that’s debatable. It’s because I know more about the Bible than many of them and it irks me when they make broad proclamations about the Bible that are patently false and discount my ideas with the ever-so-productive, “Well, if you aren’t a man of faith, you’ll never see the truth or understand the reality.” The problem with such statements is they fail to account for the difference between a discussion and a debate.

We can’t debate faith. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. We can discuss our respective faiths, hopefully respectfully, and we can try to persuade one another, but we can’t, really, debate. A debate requires logic and evidence with debatable levels of provability. It’s the provability that’s at the core of the difference.

If you believe, on faith and from your personal experience, that every word in the Bible is true, that is wonderful and honorable and I have every respect for your faith. I believe, on the other hand, that not every word in the Bible is true. My belief is also based on my faith and on my personal experiences. I hope you can have as much respect for my faith as I have for yours.

I’m not coming into this as a godless heathen. I truly respect the sincere faith of devout Christians. . . but I expect that if we are going to enter into a debate or a discussion that my faith is not discounted because it differs from yours.

For example, the Flood.

Let’s say you state that the Flood happened, and I ask you what evidence you have to support that assertion. You tell me it’s in the Bible, so it has to be true.

Okay. . . now the conversation just changed from a debate to a discussion. When your source is the Bible, we need to take a step back. Before we can discuss or debate the Flood, we need to approach the source of your information: the Bible. Is the Bible the unshakable Word of God? Is everything in it factually true? That is a separate issue.

Why do you believe the Bible is the Word of God and that everything in it is true? Faith. The Bible has had a huge impact on your life, on the lives of people around you, on the lives of billions worldwide and throughout much of human history. You pray and God answers your prayers. You apply the Bible to your life and miracles occur. You read the Bible and it’s like a veil is lifted from your eyes and everything just makes so much more sense.

I sincerely believe every one of those statements is true. Absolutely factual. I have no argument with any of it, and I say so with all sincerity and in no way do I mean to tease.

Unfortunately, nothing in that paragraph in any way demonstrates a reason, other than faith, to accept the Bible as the literal Word of God. I myself have great faith, but faith is not proof. It is not evidence. You can’t weigh it or debate it.

You believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

I believe it is the inspired work of a great many men over many generations.

We can discuss our beliefs. You can point to the evidence that Jesus really existed, that the locations in the Bible have been archaeologically confirmed, but it will never shake my faith that the Bible is the work of men, not God. I can point out what I see as internal inconsistencies and errors, but that will not shake your faith that the Bible is the Word of God.

Okay, so we can have a lively discussion, as long as we remember we’re discussing differences in faith, not in fact. You will never prove, to my logical satisfaction, that the Bible is the Word of God, just as I will never prove to your logical satisfaction that it is the work of men. So be it.

Back to the Flood.

If the Bible is your primary source of information on the Flood, we can’t debate it. You accept the Bible as the only source necessary and I don’t accept the Bible as a source of reliable historical information at all.

Here’s the thing. We can have a debate without ever using the Bible as a primary source. Nearly every culture on the planet has a flood story from antiquity. Water levels do rise and fall dramatically. Mass extinctions have, in fact, occurred. All these issues can be debated. All this evidence can be weighed. So we can have a friendly debate over whether the Flood happened. You may be rather more convinced because of your faith, and I will likely skew to the side of skepticism because of my faith. But we can debate the likelihood that a Flood occurred

What about Noah and the Arc?

Here we’re back to faith. There is no realistically provable way Noah could have built an arc large enough, no way he could have fed all those animals for forty days, and no way the world could have repopulated with only one male and one female of every species. Not without God and a miracle. Not by a long shot.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe in miracles. I sincerely do. But whether or not God played his hand here isn’t a matter of debate. It’s a matter of faith. Do you believe God saved the planet with Noah and the Arc? Okay. That’s cool.

What about possible remains found on the side of a mountain that fit the description? Okay, maybe there was a boat. Now lets go back to billions of species repopulating from a genetic base of two each. See, none of this debatable science really matters to most Christians. That’s not why they believe in God’s miracle. They believe because of their faith in God.

This is the part that makes me cranky. None of the science really matters to most Christians entering into the debate. Not really. They believe in something like Noah’s Arc based on their faith, and they’d believe just as much without a boat on the side of a mountain. Well, if the archaeology is factually irrelevant to them, why try to convince me with it?

They should just say they believe it on faith and leave it at that. There’s nothing wrong with faith. Faith is awesome.

Here’s the thing. I believe in miracles. I really do, but I don’t believe in that particular miracle. Why not? What a lot of trouble to reboot the planet. If God is all-powerful and he really wanted to smite all the sinners, why not just send a host of angels? Why destroy and then miraculously restore it all—every plant, animal and person—when it’s just the sinners he wanted to kill off? It doesn’t even make sense to me as a matter of faith. Not to me.

See, that’s why we can only discuss faith. We can’t debate it. Faith is never based on logic or proof. If we knew for an absolute fact that God existed, we wouldn’t need faith. If God invited me out for scones and told me, “Yeah. I wrote the Bible. It’s all true. Here’s the rough draft.” Well, then it wouldn’t be a matter of faith.

Faith is only necessary for something that isn’t factually provable. If you need to resort to your faith in something, like the Truth of the Bible, then you can’t really use anything in it as factual evidence in a debate. You can discuss your faith in it, and we can perhaps even debate whether your God is the sort to wipe out the planet with a Flood or isn’t He. . . but that discussion is like the debate over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin: philosophically interesting, but not based on the physical world in any way, shape, or form because it can only happen conditionally. If we take it as a given that God exists, for the purposes of this discussion, then is he the kind of God. . .

Please trust your faith enough to rely on it. If you’re discussing any aspect of religion, spirituality, the Bible, or moral decisions based on any of those topics, please let your faith in God shine through. Don’t throw out the latest evidence hitting the internet if you don’t really care about the science, anyway.

Just say, “I have faith in the Bible, and that’s good enough for me.”

All right. Now I know not to waste our time with scientific evidence or logical arguments.  We can discuss our beliefs respectfully and perhaps each of us will walk away a little more informed. We can agree to disagree, and if I end up damned for all eternity because of my faith, that’s between me and God. You and I can still be friends and neither of us needs to get snippy with the other.

Namaste.

Uncle Jack Kamp: July 9th
9:15 am Soooo… after half an hour of researching the various rec centers in VB and comparing the various complicated schedules (to avoid a replay of last weeks scheduling fiasco) I think I know where we’re going.

The boys have been curious about the whole modeling thing. (When you are one of two cute red-headed twins, the subject is inevitable.) So I’m going to carry the camera around today to see what happens. Photos to follow.

1:00 pm Quote of the summer: Don’t get me wet! I’m in the pool!
First runner up: Stop smacking your brother with his own noodle, it’s not polite.

So to explain the quote of the summer: Byron and Blake were in the pool at the beginning of summer. (A little wading pool that we’d actually bought for the dog, but whatever. Other than shedding, not a lot of difference.)
Blake turned on the hose and sprayed his brother with it.
“Don’t get me wet!” Byron yelled out rather indignantly.
“Dude,” I said, “you’re standing in a swimming pool whining about getting wet? Seriously?”
His face turned red. “Oh yeah.”
So now whenever someone starts whining about something stupid, someone else yells out, “I’m in the pool! Don’t get me wet!”

1:15 pm Kids are like cats.

Me: Okay, you’ve been in here playing on your Nooks long enough. Time to go outside and play. [He proceeds to outline several options for outdoor play.]

Boy: I’m too tired. Can I take a nap?

Me: Now all of a sudden you need a nap? You can lie down on the couch outside.

Boy 2: Can I play on my Nook outside?

Me: No.

[Boys huff in utter disgust. General annoying whining from both. One heads for a hammock. The other drops onto the patio couch. Uncle Jack goes outside and starts filling the wading pool from the hose completely ignoring both boys. He sprays the hose straight up in the air to make it rain and he laughs. He attaches the sprinkler and shoves it under the water to make a fountain.]

Boy: Uh… can I do that?

Me: Just a minute. Let me get it set.

Boy: Oh. Okay. [Now he *really* wants to play with it.]

1:25pm Both boys are in the pool playing with the hose and filling up water balloons, laughing and playing faintly strange games with the water hose.

Okay. I get it. Lesson learned.

A day off.
Hm. It’s awfully quiet in the house with the boys and their mom off on an adventure. Ahhhh…. sweet, sweet peace.
The house to myself.
……
…..
I think I need to go get lunch somewhere while I write. It’s too darn quiet in here.

Uncle Jack Kamp. July 2

12:30 pm Scheduling is complicated.

So, the pool opens very early, but the skate park in the same location doesn’t open until 9am. So, logically, we should hit the skate park at 9 am and then hit the pool after, which makes sense in terms of cooling off after exercise. Except that there is a day camp event at 11:30 am, so we’d be getting to the pool shortly before a mob hits it, and the boys don’t much like mobs. Okay, pool first (dry clothes packed) then skate park. Except once we get there we find out that while the pool is open, the water slide doesn’t open until 11am, the outdoor water splashy area opens at 11:30 am and the rock wall, which is the real reason Byron wanted to go to that particular pool, doesn’t open until noon. Not forgetting the summer camp thing that starts at 11:30 am. Okay. Seriously? What officious bureaucrat made that schedule?

2:30 pm  Why are Floaty Turtle and Floaty Starfish anchored to the floor of the swimming pool with a tether, rather than stuck on the end of a pole, if their actual purpose *isn’t* for 9-year-old boys to fight their way to the top of them while their uncle tips it back and forth to knock them off. I mean, come on, what fun is it if they can’t struggle their way to the top of Floaty Turtles shell only to have me quash all thoughts of success by dumping them off.

Stupid life guard and her stupid whistle. I’ll show her what she can… oh wait, I’m supposed to be a good example. Sigh. Let’s go down the water slide again.

Uncle Jack Kamp: Supplemental (Emphasis on “mental”)
So…… five hours of chasing the B-boys around a swimming pool, tipping them off Floaty Turtle, up the stairs and down the water slide (Wait a minute. Adults can ride the water slide, too! Booyah.) With a host of etceteras.

Then, a one hour Zumba class and Jesus Christ, can I just sit down for a minute, wait, maybe I’ll just lie here a moment.. or… maybe Netflix is a really good idea.

Tune in tomorrow to hear Uncle Jack scream: Charlie Horse!!!!

Uncle Jack Kamp July 1st: So it was a quiet morning, with no antsy or whiny behavior. Hm. Make them play outside or let them chill? Or ask them…

Me: So do you want to go to the pool, or just have a lazy day?

Byron: I wanna go to the pool– wait. We did a lot yesterday and I got a headache. Maybe we should have a lazy day so I don’t overdo it two days in a row.

Yep. He’s nine

4:15 pm  Extremely quiet day. Either they really did have a couple of very active days or they are plotting to take over the world and hope to catch me off-guard. Usually, by lunch time they’re getting squirrelly. Today, very sedate through the afternoon. I pity their parents tonight. (hee hee.)

Perhaps I should plan a trip to the pool, a playscape and maybe laps around the track for tomorrow. (They have said they want to lean to “run track.”) My guess is all this relaxation will make rabid monkeys of them tomorrow.

Unless they enslave the planet as we sleep and force us all to wear tuxedos while we do their bidding. (Bwa. ha. ha.) In which case I will no longer be responsible for planning the day. (Woo hoo!)

Since people seem to be reading these after all, this from yesterday…

[At the community swimming pool. Very busy day at the pool. Uncle Jack plays tag with Byron and Blake and a friend of theirs. Uncle Jack, of course, is permanently designated as “it.”]
Blake: [Swims away from Uncle Jack, shrieking like a terrified little girl.] Don’t let Uncle Jack touch you. He’s a monster. Stay away! Stay away!
ME: While I applaud your sincerity in the game, perhaps you shouldn’t shout that at the top of your lungs about your middle-aged uncle while we’re all swimming half-naked in a crowded pool.

Uncle Jack Kamp
9:30 am I discovered the secret to time travel. Tell a nine-year-old boy he needs to do something other than video games for an hour. Time. passes. so. slowly. it.. starts.. to.. wind… backward….

“No. Seriously, if I don’t do it right *now* I’ll never be able to do it again *ever*. Seriously.”

So I had this realization. Yesterday wasn’t all that physically demanding. Sure we ran around a bit, but it was nothing like adventure day with hiking and the ocean. Yet at the end of the afternoon, I was balls out tired. Am I really that old? Well, that’s likely part of it, but 45 isn’t really walker time by a long shot.

It’s part of the reason parents are always tired. Even when I’m sitting here at the computer, at rest to the eye of the beholder, my “engine is running.” A big part of me is paying attention. I’m listening for shouts, yells and screams, and its like the driver for a getaway car. I never turn off the engine and have my foot on the gas, waiting for the moment I need to burn rubber.

There’s a part of me like the getaway car, no less the driver. I’m ever vigilant in case an argument starts, a boy hurts himself and I need to administer first aid, in some way I need to suddenly turn into a super hero.

Caregivers never take off the cape.

It’s exhausting.

The question is whether I can take off the cape from time to time now that I know that I’m wearing it. Will I be able to chillax on the hyper-vigilance or is it endemic to childcare? I’ll let you know.

By the way, this phenomenon is something I’ve understood intellectually in talking to parents and in observing Ryan and Hope over the past two years. Experiencing it for myself is different. I’ve watched the boys before, but rarely more than a day or two at a time, so I’ve never before been immersed in is long enough to really have that “aha moment.”

And for any of you thinking, “See? Now you feel my pain.” No. I don’t. Neither do the millions of other people unable, for whatever reason, to have kids of their own. I feel amazingly grateful that I have this opportunity, at least for one summer, to experience this kind of exhaustion and to try to overcome it. It’s awesome!

For anyone complaining about the horrors of parenting (and I see comedians shared on Facebook all the time) I personally know at least a dozen folks who’d happily take that “problem” off your hands.

7:00 am Ugh. Awake before the alarm. Good news and bad. Today’s adventure will take us mythical Mt. Trashmore. No. Really. That’s its name. They piled metric tons of garbage in a hole next to a lake. Piled a ton of dirt on top of that, and now kids play there. Tune in tonight to see if any of us glow in the dark.

8:30 am A year ago, I’d take the boys to the Mt. Trashmore playscape and they’d sprint to it and run from the monkey bars to the climbing walls to the slides so fast that within half an hour I was dripping wet and panting. They still have fun but in a sort of, “Well, yeah, okay” sort of way. I guess they’re growing up. *sniff*

9:00 am On the other side of it, the bike/skate ramps here seem a *bit* too advanced for them. Byron’s face seemed pretty scared. Soooo… a little to old for the one. Not quite experienced enough for the other. It’s one of those awkward ages.

9:30 am A-a-a-nd the other skate park is closed for repairs. (Until June 30 for whom it may concern.) This playscape seems a bit more up their alley. A slidey bar thing they loved and a real tire swing (as opposed to the fake one at the other park.) Okay… they’re still kids!!

12:00 noon Lunch with cartoons. So. Um. Scripted cartoon pretending to be a spontaneous reality show like “Survivor.” *blink, blink* Um. Okay. Never mind. Lunch is over, time to hit the park again.

7:15 Seriously contemplating purchase of an IV drip for caffeine that is timed to start fifteen minutes before my alarm rings. I consider trying to invent such a thing if it doesn’t exist.

8:30 am Frisbee golf! We play it “cooperative mode.” I’ve learned that using terms from video games makes ideas more palatable. “Cooperative mode” allows me to avoid fights over cheating, how many throws we’ve each made and general mayhem. It also means there is only one RFO (Randomly Flying Object) in the sky at one time.

9:00 am Random stranger offers to let us borrow his discs. I suspect they have been laced with crack, so I decline. He is rather adamant, I suspect now that rather than a crack dealer, he might be a disc salesman who hopes we’ll like his product so well we want to buy one of our own. Hm. Same thing, really.

I refrain from telling to to go f$$$ himself in front of the boys. I really don’t want three or more RFO’s in the air at once. Seriously. Is the phrase, “We’re perfectly happy playing exactly was we are, and don’t need any more discs, but thank you for offering,” difficult to understand? Apparently, I have slipped into Polish.

No, the idea that he might just be a friendly person never occurred to me.

9:30 am And we’re done. When you’re 9 years old, the shortest distance between two points is anywhere you go as long as you run top speed. All eighteen holes in an hour. Well, except for 12 which we never did find, and we couldn’t find eighteen either, so we just threw it at the nearest basket we could find. Which happened to be #7. But the boys had pretty much had enough of that game and it’s easier to say, “Hey, let’s call that 18 and we’re done.” Bazinga.

“Now we need to find somewhere to wash our hands and go to lunch.”

That was Byron, not me. I should probably find it disturbing that the 9-year-old is more fastidious than I.

And it’s only 9:30 am. But the guys really seem set on the idea that “lunch” follows frisbee golf. The possibility that there may be time between game and “lunch” does not appear to be an option.

9:45 am At Panera. Yes, they serve lunch all day, which is nice because the boys are set on mac and cheese, and I’m not sedated nearly enough to deal with  disappointment. I don’t know the Panera menu at all and I’m juggling a reckessly perky cashier, Blake and the large chocolately death bomb he’s picked up and must put back,  Byron who is explaining the importance of baguettes and the woman behind me in line who just stands there breathing like I’m taking too long.

So, okay, two-fer lunch special sounds good and cheap. I take the first item on each menu for the two-fer, only to realize that it’s two-fer but each item is priced separately. Then why the hell is it called two-fer? Holy crap. $$$ Whatever. Give me the blinky coaster and let me get away from the breathing woman.

10:15 am Weird man in fedora sits behind me and starts talking to the boys. They seem entertained, so I refrain from telling him to f$$$ himself.

10:20 am He won’t shut up. Seriously, am I wearing a sign today that says, “Hi, although I refrain from looking you in the eye and when you mutter your first word at me I glare at you with every ounce of feral strength I possess, by all means keep f-ing talking to us you infernal moron.”?

Apparently, being out in public with cute red-headed twin boys is an invitation to every wack job out there to start up a conversation. I begin to think it would be a good lesson in not talking to strangers if I scream like a howler monkey every time someone approaches. Perhaps pepper spray. Or a good kick in the nuts.

1:40 pm Quiet afternoon so far. The boys are entertaining themselves with videos and games and the occasional wrestling match that has rules based on some sort of unfathomable quantum mathematics. I am reminded of “Calvinball” from Calvin and Hobbes. Huh. Living with the boys makes that comic strip so much more meaningful.

Dare I rock the boat and suggest some sort of organized activity, or shall I let the sleeping beast lie? Tune in later to find out…